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David Hume
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 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: The Jewish claim to Isreal in Perspective. |
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The Sioux are a nation, the Maori have a nation. The Kurds are a
nation. Why have these entities not been awarded a state? nation hood
should not guarantee statehood.
The English were many nations - they grew up into one.
The Jews have not been a nation for over a thousand years, until 1948.
Your claim is teleological and not sufficient. |
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David Hume
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: The Jewish claim to Isreal in Perspective. |
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On Jul 14, 1:36 pm, jgarbuz <jgar...@netzero.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 14, 5:14 am, David Hume <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 14, 12:39 am,jgarbuz<jgar...@netzero.com> wrote:
...skip...
So because the League of Nations AND the United Nations ruled
favorably on Palestine being restored as the Jewish national home, and
the Jewish state, they both had no grasp of reality and both were a
rich man's club, etc., or whatever. BTW, when are you going to learn
to spell Israel correctly? It's not IS REAL. It's ISRA EL.
Its called a typo, E is more accessible to fast moving fingers.
No, it's because you pronounce the name of the country as IS and REAL.
But the actual Hebrew pronunciation is IS RA EL.
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But I pronounce it Is-ra-el - don't you, you sanctimonious little
prig?
I have never pronounced it Is-real - I leave that up to American
tossers like yourslef. |
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David Hume
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: The Jewish claim to Isreal in Perspective. |
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| Quote: |
But the Jewish claim dates back to the time of Hadrian - the last time
a Jewish state existed in Palestine.
So what? The Serb nationalists and the Irish nationalists demanded
independence even if they had not been independent for many centuries
beforehand.
The act of 1948 is as
unprecedented and unworkable as a claim that the dispossessed people
of 2nd century Britain were to be handed back the mainland. This would
involve the Welsh, Cornish and Scots taking control of the British
Parliament and encouraging the Celtic diaspora to return.
It would be nice if Britain at least gave back northern Ireland to the
Irish. But is there a Celtic diaspora waiting and praying for a
messiah or deliverer to bring them back to Londinium? I wasn't aware
of it.
It would not
be easy to achieve - but possible.
Why is not easy? The UK should just leave Northern Ireland. Period.
It's Irish land that was occupied by Scot protestant settlers who
became the landlords and the native Catholic Irish were their
sharecroppers.
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Well that just shows what a prat you are. By the same token I suppose
you think all the rag-heads should just leave Palestine/Israel.
There has not been a single Parliament that would not have happily
washed its hands of the Irish problem, by any means. However - it has
been felt that the only true solution has to be a democratic one. The
first action of the British Parliament to send troops in in 1969 was
to protect Catholics from Protestants, paradoxically. It was not long
before the troops were stuck in the middle of a fight nobody wanted.
30 years of bombs and kneecapping later we have peace.
The solution in N Ireland is a mature and sensitive agreement which
guarantees power sharing between both sides. The reason why the UK
should not quit NI is because NI is part of the UK and most of its
people prefer to belong to the UK. The settlement does not rely on
some out-of date claim to land or based on a religious system - we'll
leave that sort of idiocy to people like you.
The big question is whether the Jews can be mature enough, and
inclusive enough to share power with Arabs now that they have created
so much hatred by the draconian action of 1948. You have rather shot
yourselves in the foot before the race has begun.
I think you are in for the long haul in this respect. Let's hope that
no one lets off a nuke before peace can be established - I doubt it.
| Quote: |
Possible, especially if the move
were aided by the USA and another powerful country. That is how
fucking idiotic the Jews claim to Palestine is.
The Irish claim to northern Ireland is not idiotic. Why is it idiotic?
But I admit I don't know the history there in depth, but that doesn't
stop many like yourself who don't know squat about Jews or Israel or
Palestine to pontificate like you do.
|
The NI people wish to remain in the UK. Partition only happend (1921)
to avoid a civil war! The point is that the people of NI want to be
protected from the theocratic South, and keep their non Catholic way
of life. Part of the solution has been a growing secularism which has
undermined the Protestant/Catholic conflict.
| Quote: |
Where are these Celts so ready to "return" to the Britain? Are they in
the churches, synagogues, or the in the taverns? Where do these
displaced Celts tend to hang out? I wasn't aware of a Celtic zionist
movement. But I'll support it if there is one.
There was a Celtic zionist movement, in Ireland it was called the
military arm of the IRA, in Wales
I support Irish reunification, but not the terrorist methods of the
IRA.
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Then you are an idiot. Not even the Irish want it. |
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jgarbuz
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: The Jewish claim to Isreal in Perspective. |
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On Jul 14, 10:08 am, David Hume <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
The Sioux are a nation, the Maori have a nation.
|
Yes, the Lakota (which I believe include the Sioux) have already
seceded from the United States, only it hasn't caught any media
attention yet. I believe they are issuing their own passports
already, but I don't think that one will get them very far.
| Quote: |
The Kurds are a
nation. Why have these entities not been awarded a state? nation hood
should not guarantee statehood.
|
You finally ask some good questions, and I agree. What you have to do
is take a time machine back to the Paris Peace Conference of 1919 and
bring a delegation of Maori or Sioux to the proceedings, and make your
case for them.That is what Chaim Weizmann and Emir Feisal did (they
supported each other BTW). But many if not most national groups did
not get recognition, including one disappointed guy who was later to
be called Ho Chi Minh, and went over to the side of the brand new
USSR who promised equality and anticolonialist struggle and a
brotherhood of socialist nations in what came to be known as the
Comintern (Communist International). But many states did get
independence in the 1930s and membership in the League, but the
majority of small groups, like the Kurds, were ignored. The Jews were
in a strong position, having influence in London and many other
capitals, and were able to mount a strong case before the Council, and
since Britain had made promises to both the Jews and to Feisal, it
kept both in part, but not in whole. The Jews ended up NOT getting the
right to settle in most of Palestine, which was east of the Jordan
river, and Feisal did not get to become king in Damascus of a huge,
united Arab state. One of his sons got a consolation prize of the east
bank of Palestine, and it was renamed the Emirate of Transjordan, and
know today as the Kingdom of Jordan. Another got what became Iraq,
which incorporated the newly discovered oil fields of Mosul, in what
the Kurds call Kurdistan. So some people who deserved states got none,
while a new state called "Jordan" was created out of whole clothe, and
the Jews got the right to settle west of the Jordan river in what was
called the Jewish National Home.
| Quote: |
The English were many nations - they grew up into one.
The Jews have not been a nation for over a thousand years, until 1948.
Your claim is teleological and not sufficient.
|
The Jews have been a nation for 3200 years, but the fact that they
were run off their land does not mean we dissolved as a nation. It
just meant we laid low in our ghettos and prayed for the day of
Redemption. When praying no longer seemed to help, more direct action
was finally taken in the late 19th century when the modern political
zionist movement was founded. The Holocaust only sealed the deal.
After that, most Jews realized there was no home anywhere but Home.
Some have not realized it yet, but I'm sure they will, because
antisemitism never dies. It only hibernates and waits for the turmoil
to wake it up. And another turmoil is apparently underway. Times may
change, but people don't. Love is ephemeral; Hate is forever. |
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jgarbuz
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: The Jewish claim to Isreal in Perspective. |
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On Jul 14, 10:10 am, David Hume <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 14, 1:36 pm,jgarbuz<jgar...@netzero.com> wrote:
On Jul 14, 5:14 am, David Hume <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 14, 12:39 am,jgarbuz<jgar...@netzero.com> wrote:
...skip...
So because the League of Nations AND the United Nations ruled
favorably on Palestine being restored as the Jewish national home, and
the Jewish state, they both had no grasp of reality and both were a
rich man's club, etc., or whatever. BTW, when are you going to learn
to spell Israel correctly? It's not IS REAL. It's ISRA EL.
Its called a typo, E is more accessible to fast moving fingers.
No, it's because you pronounce the name of the country as IS and REAL.
But the actual Hebrew pronunciation is IS RA EL.
But I pronounce it Is-ra-el - don't you, you sanctimonious little
prig? I have never pronounced it Is-real - I leave that up to American
tossers like yourslef.
|
I'll take your word for it, even though deep inside I truly believe
you're full of shit. |
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jgarbuz
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: The Jewish claim to Isreal in Perspective. |
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On Jul 14, 10:29 am, David Hume <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
But the Jewish claim dates back to the time of Hadrian - the last time
a Jewish state existed in Palestine.
So what? The Serb nationalists and the Irish nationalists demanded
independence even if they had not been independent for many centuries
beforehand.
The act of 1948 is as
unprecedented and unworkable as a claim that the dispossessed people
of 2nd century Britain were to be handed back the mainland. This would
involve the Welsh, Cornish and Scots taking control of the British
Parliament and encouraging the Celtic diaspora to return.
It would be nice if Britain at least gave back northern Ireland to the
Irish. But is there a Celtic diaspora waiting and praying for a
messiah or deliverer to bring them back to Londinium? I wasn't aware
of it.
It would not
be easy to achieve - but possible.
Why is not easy? The UK should just leave Northern Ireland. Period.
It's Irish land that was occupied by Scot protestant settlers who
became the landlords and the native Catholic Irish were their
sharecroppers.
Well that just shows what a prat you are. By the same token I suppose
you think all the rag-heads should just leave Palestine/Israel.
|
They can stay if they don't mind being loyal citizens of Israel. Or
they can have their own state in Judah and Samaria provided it is
democratic, demilitarized and friendly towards Israel, like Canada vis
a vis the United States. Or they can leave. They've got options. The
one option they will not have is to drive the Jewish nation back off
its land again.
| Quote: |
There has not been a single Parliament that would not have happily
washed its hands of the Irish problem, by any means. However - it has
been felt that the only true solution has to be a democratic one. The
first action of the British Parliament to send troops in in 1969 was
to protect Catholics from Protestants, paradoxically.
|
Well I won't pretend to be like you, an expert on situations I have
but minimal of knowledge of or first hand experience with, but I'll
venture to ask, why should the Catholic majority in that province have
to be protected from the descendants of Scottish Protestant settlers?
But I feel that terrorism by either the IRA nor the Unionists was
unwarranted and wrong. It should be worked out by negotiations, as
indeed it finally appears to be going on. But the problem is still not
fixed, from what I understand, and that conflict over there is NOTHING
compared to the Jew-Arab struggle over the Land of Israel, or
"Palestine" as much of the world insists on calling it.
| Quote: |
It was not long
before the troops were stuck in the middle of a fight nobody wanted.
30 years of bombs and kneecapping later we have peace.
The solution in N Ireland is a mature and sensitive agreement which
guarantees power sharing between both sides. The reason why the UK
should not quit NI is because NI is part of the UK and most of its
people prefer to belong to the UK.
|
I suspect the Irish people don't see it that way, just as I don't see
Judah and Samaria as being Arab land. To me its Jewish land occupied
by Arabs. But I do agree that negotiating is better than constant
terror and mayhem.
| Quote: |
The settlement does not rely on
some out-of date claim to land or based on a religious system - we'll
leave that sort of idiocy to people like you.
The big question is whether the Jews can be mature enough, and
inclusive enough to share power with Arabs now that they have created
so much hatred by the draconian action of 1948. You have rather shot
yourselves in the foot before the race has begun.
|
What kind of power-sharing are you talking about? We've done nothing
but share. Gilead and Bashan became the Kingdom of Jordan. Now they
want another Palestinian state, but they don't want to accept that
there was ever a Jewish Temple, or that the Jews have a historic claim
to the land, and that we must take in 5 million so-called refugees
when Israel itself absorbed all the Jews from the Arab countries and
on and on. The Arab complaints and demands are endless.
As for Jew-hatred, that has always been there, and I suppose always
will be. Like any form of racism, I cannot cure what appears to be a
genetic defect that predisposes so many to despise us. I wouldn't
begin to try. I don't care if they hate Israel, but they better
respect us. Like with Black people, you may hate them, but you better
show respect or they'll do you in.
| Quote: |
I think you are in for the long haul in this respect. Let's hope that
no one lets off a nuke before peace can be established - I doubt it.
|
If it has to come to that, it has to come to that. The US used the
Jewish-invented nukes to finally defeat Japan, so if that is the only
recourse, than so be it. We'll try every rational and compromising
avenue, but if all else fails, then a few nukes might have to decide
the issue.
| Quote: |
Possible, especially if the move
were aided by the USA and another powerful country. That is how
fucking idiotic the Jews claim to Palestine is.
The Irish claim to northern Ireland is not idiotic. Why is it idiotic?
But I admit I don't know the history there in depth, but that doesn't
stop many like yourself who don't know squat about Jews or Israel or
Palestine to pontificate like you do.
The NI people wish to remain in the UK. Partition only happend (1921)
to avoid a civil war! The point is that the people of NI want to be
protected from the theocratic South, and keep their non Catholic way
of life. Part of the solution has been a growing secularism which has
undermined the Protestant/Catholic conflict.
|
EVeryone has their excuses as to why their problem is special and
unique. We Jews don't want a Muslim state over us either anymore, or
a Christian one for that matter. Hamas calls for an Islamic state in
"Palestine." that is their uncompromising platform. And all Jews sent
back to wherever. I suppose wherever means Auschwitz. It probably
doesn't mean Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, Egypt, Iran or other Muslim
countries that nearly half of all Israelis hailed from.
THere is the misconception that all ISraelis hail from Russia or
Poland.
| Quote: |
Where are these Celts so ready to "return" to the Britain? Are they in
the churches, synagogues, or the in the taverns? Where do these
displaced Celts tend to hang out? I wasn't aware of a Celtic zionist
movement. But I'll support it if there is one.
There was a Celtic zionist movement, in Ireland it was called the
military arm of the IRA, in Wales
I support Irish reunification, but not the terrorist methods of the
IRA.
Then you are an idiot. Not even the Irish want it.
|
Then why did it exist for so long? The Jewish underground terrorists
movements only existed from around 1940-1948. When the state was
reestablished in 1948, all armed groups had to disband. But you know
what? I think you are the idiot. And not a little one either. |
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